Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: How do you know that it's flagged? It creates a timestamp on the wave file. Cool.
I don't know what that means, but that sounds like it's helpful to you. You know how when you put it in a computer, you know you can see it? Yeah.
It makes a line. Oh, on the. On this. Yeah. So it's like a. Is it an audition? It's like an audible click. It's not audible. It doesn't make any sound. It's metadata. Wow. Yeah. That's impressive.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: He could have said anything he wanted. He could have.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Could have said.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: It elucidates the slimmer. And you'd have been like, oh, okay.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Wow.
That's amazing. I can't believe it does that.
Such elucidation. Then I would use that with someone else, and they'd be like, oh, no, this button. This is the elucidate button.
It elucidates the slimmer. Like, oh, I'd say that to Knox. I'd be like, talking to Knox. Knox, hit the elucidate. Hit the elucidate button.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: They'd be like, these Louisiana people.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Well, that's what that. It's. It elucidates. It elucidates.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah. That's because Marley. Yeah. Yes.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Good.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: He's got gumbo in his mouth.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: You guys just eat trash out of the ditch. And this is what's happened to you.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: And it's delicious.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: You bunch of fools. All right, hold on. I'm gonna elucidate this real quick, and then we'll actually know where we're starting at. Oh, he's checking cameras. Very good. Why am. Okay, buddy. Thank you. All right. Elucidating.
It is recording. This is what would be placed in what we would call the outtakes. Right.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: After the fact, for whenever, you know, like, after you become massively famous. Yeah.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: And then. Then later on, you put an outtake reel to make yourself look more relatable to the general public. And so they're like. They are humans. You know, after we've signed our book deals.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: It has to be in that order, though.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Yes. No, you sign a book deal, and then you move on from there. What. What would your book be about?
[00:01:58] Speaker B: I've always thought about doing a book on.
Well, I have a book title, actually. I have two. Two book ideas that I'm working on right now.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Really? And legitimately do.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: I mean, one of them I'm working on legitimately.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: The other one has always been like.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: The other one's Illegit. Right.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: But one of the like so legit. One of them. So legit. I'm thinking about making it a preaching series. First book second, which is the John Piper method.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: That is. Yes.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: And so hang on. Here we go. Here we go.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Here we go. I'm ready.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah, this is. So this is Spurgeon.
He says it is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works, nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace, nor unless we exalt the. The electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Figure that's a good place to start.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: I think that's an excellent place to start. So the idea is Calvinism is the gospel. God's sovereignty is the gospel.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yes. So this specifically God's sovereignty and salvation, which is, for me, as best I can tell, that's where the dividing line is.
With apologies to James White.
He's listening right now.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: He's been following the podcast since his inception about 40 seconds ago. So, you know. Yeah, big, big fan. Big fan.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: So when we talk about God's sovereignty, every Christian believes God's sovereignty on paper, God's sovereignty in salvation.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: That's different.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Is where the differences start. It's where the difficulty starts.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Sure. Well, like, everybody does believe that God is sovereign because why else would they pray?
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Right?
[00:03:43] Speaker A: God, please help. Right. Well, that means he has power to help. He has power over the circumstances in the situation that you're in. But what makes people uncomfortable is whenever he saves people sovereignly. I got saved. How'd you get saved? Even the inflection of the word, the tense of the word implies it's something that happened to you. Right. Not something that you did. Right. Yeah, that was. Yeah, I became a Calvinist. When was that?
Oh, my goodness. It's been a while. I think 15 years ago, 18 years ago, 20 years ago. I can't remember. But it was this moment where it was second Timothy 2:25 and Acts 11:18. Okay. So the Bible says, repent and believe. And I was like, yeah, repent and believe.
And then I don't know how it happened, but I became clear between those two verses, 2 Timothy 2:25 and Acts 11:18, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ and repentance is a gift. And those two moments fell into place and I said, oh, God gives faith and Belief done, ship sailed. I am officially now a Calvinist. God is sovereign and salvation domino fall.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: One of my fellow Presbyterian pastors, one of the guys in my presbytery, pointed out to me once that he said when I became a Calvinist, it meant that I could stop hiding from certain passages in my Bible.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Oh, like all of Romans 9.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Right. Romans 9 being a good one. Ephesians one being another.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: And so this is something that I think, again, it might sound like an exaggeration to say you find God's sovereignty on every page, but God is. It seems that our Lord is perfectly comfortable with talking about his sovereignty in a way that makes us rather uncomfortable.
And so for a lot of reasons that I think we'll get into the struggle with sovereignty, I like to call God's sovereignty the gateway drug into the Reformed faith.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: So if we're going to talk about. As we are going to talk about this. This movement that you and I have observed in our own lives as well as the lives of many others, about moving from. Well, I mean, we'll just say from the Baptist world to the. To the Reformed and Presbyterian world, having certain bridges that you have to get over to get there.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: This one is. Is usually the first bridge, Right?
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: Of recognizing the sovereignty of God in Scripture. And so for you, you said it was two passages in particular.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: And for me, I. I have been thinking of two pastors in particular as I was working through this. So Romans 9 was always one I avoided.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: So I. As. As I think you know, I grew up United Methodist.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Oh, man. Okay.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: And I remember a family member of mine, and I won't say who to protect their identity.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: But you know who you are.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You will know who you are because they will probably listen to this. That when this member of my family was still a part of the United Methodist Church, that he mentioned to me that our pastor is preaching through Romans. And I had become a Calvinist by this point. And I thought, well, that's exciting.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: What chapter is he on?
[00:06:44] Speaker B: I kind of want to see how that goes.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: And so I said. So I said, what chapter is he on? He said, well, he's in chapter seven. Okay. And what's his pace? He says, well, it's about a chapter or half a chapter every Sunday. Well, good grief. Okay.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: That's a lot.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: It is.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: But I thought, well, I won't have to wait long to see how this goes.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: So I'm coming in three weeks.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Right?
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, got it.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: So I waited about a Month. Okay, so four weeks. Yeah. Before. Before saying anything. And then I said, so where are you guys now? He said, Romans 10. I said, okay, how did Romans 9 go? And he said, well, we sort of skipped that part.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Oh, man. Oh, man.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Look, I know that. So, you know, both Arminians listen to this are going to get really mad.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Both of them?
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, both of them. The two Arminians that listen to this might get really mad at that and say, like, well, no, we know how to preach through Roman sign. And fair enough. It just wasn't the case in this particular instance.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Well, I had a buddy of mine who went to seminary at Pensacola Christian College in Florida, and I will not name him here because he is not present for me to ask permission. But he went to seminary at pcc and his. It was his New Testament teacher. They were going through Romans. He taught Romans 1 through 8. He got to Romans 9 and he stopped. And then he said, guys, they don't let me teach this chapter here.
And he turned the page and he started teaching Romans 10. I'm not making this up. Okay. And so what did he do? Everybody in that room said, I'm going.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: To go back to my dorm and read Romans 9.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: I'm reading Romans 9. And I. He turned that whole room Calvinist, like, with one flip. Flip of his switch.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Oh, now I see why they won't let you teach it. That's right.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. That's right. Well, I got. I became a Christian in the hyper charismatic movement, and I was.
I was saved to be an evangelist. Ryan, I don't know if you know this about me, but I don't. It was terrifying. Okay, So I was. I was a champion at manipulating people's emotions. Do you know what I'm talking about?
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Whenever you've ever been to one of those big revivals. Yes. And they do the 1, 2, 3 thing, and they have the timing and they know how to cadence just so. And can get the altars filled up on the front. I was good at that for a while. I was, like, champion of the Armenian movement. I knew how to fill the altars up and I'd get invited to go preach places.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: I'm sure you would.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: It was terrifying. It was terrifying. And so for me to move from that into this, it was almost freeing because now the pressure's off. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: No. Yeah, I do.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: I don't have to get you somewhere, you know, this is what the Bible says. Choose it or don't fall. I think it was Charles Spurgeon. You started with a Spurgeon quote. I think it was Spurgeon that said, we don't know who the elect are. They don't have a white stripe painted down their back. So we preach the gospel to everybody, and the Lord sorts out who are his and who aren't. The sheep and the goats will get separated.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of saying, who are the elect? The elect are none of my business.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: That is Amen.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: That is who the elect are.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: And so I'm not going to trouble myself with that.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: And because of that, you can proclaim the gospel without fear to somebody who may oppose you because you don't know what God's going to do with that.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Nope.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: You can just say, hey, Jesus died for your sins, too. Those sins that you're sinning with right now, you can repent and believe and follow Him.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: For me. For me. Acts 4 was a big one for me.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers were gathered together. That might sound familiar to you. That's Psalm 2.
Against the Lord and against him is anointed. For truly, in this city, they were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. That's Acts 4.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: 28.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: And so where I think a lot of people struggle with the sovereignty issue is not just in the salvation, but also that means if God is sovereign over everything and everything really means everything, then that means he's also sovereign over the heartache and the affliction and the trouble and the hurt and the grief and all of the things that. That hurt.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: That's Romans 8:28 exactly. All things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Another very freeing passage, like the Calvinistic understanding of salvation and sanctification, too, is freedom. Right?
God is sovereign over all things. He has sent you good trials for your life. He has drawn you to Himself, and He has a purpose for you. That's not accidental. It's designed by him, and it's for your good and his glory, and you can trust Him.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Yes. Amen. The way that Acts 4:28 helped me with that was to say, wait a minute. That means. I mean, the language that's used is inescapable. And even most Arminians will say at this point, well, of course, the cross was Predestined. They have no problem with that.
So what you're saying there is that the worst evil that humanity's ever committed.
Right. So the murder of the son of God, you're okay with permitting that to be predestined, but the hurts that confront you, somehow, those are off the table. Right. So we can trust God with predestining the worst evil that's ever happened in the universe, the single most scandalous event of history.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: But God's not responsible for evil that hurt me.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: He would never do that.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. That's where the. That's. This is. This was the verse that started the trouble for me.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: And. And it's not. I want to be clear here, too, because people are going to be listening to this. We're not talking to an imaginary subject whenever we say that there are people who are bothered by those types of passages. No, like they're. Those people exist. I had a buddy of mine who was going through some serious health concerns, and he brought up to a group of people, I think it was at a Bible study, and he said, man, you know, the Lord's just been sending difficult trials to me, and I've been learning a lot as a result, and this sickness has been a part of it, and God's helping to bring me along. And one of the church leaders at that event walked up to him and said, God would never send that evil upon you. Oh, my God would never. God would never send something like this to you. He would. I remember. And he knew in that moment, he was like, I got to get out of here. Right. Something's wrong. He didn't. He didn't have a ton of categories. He was kind of a young Christian, but he knew enough at that moment to be like, I think that that's opposed to the Bible. Right. And so we got to figure something else out.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Well, in that case, in that story, this is a friend of yours.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: It sounds like this friend, he was already experiencing the comfort of God's sovereignty in the midst of his affliction. He hears somebody trying to take that comfort away from him, and he's saying, no, no, this is what it is. This is what's me. To continue to persevere.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: And. Yeah. So that the Acts 4 text. And there's another one I had. Oh, goodness. What was it?
It's from Amos, I believe It's Amos, chapter three, verse six. Is a trumpet blown in the city, and the people are not afraid. Does disaster come to a city unless the Lord has Done it.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: So, I mean, again, that. For me, that was in my Arminian days, my Arminian Methodist days, that was an extremely troubling passage.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: You look at it and you say.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: What do you mean? Like, calamity? I thought calamity was not the Lord's business.
I don't know whose business I thought.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: It was, but no, Jesus and the devil are arm wrestling for control of the world.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Oh, you've seen that, too.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: It's a fight. They're fighting over the world. Who knows, gonna win?
[00:14:26] Speaker B: It's a boxing match.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Who knows, Brian? We don't know what's gonna happen. So. Yeah, so I remember, too, whenever. Okay, so whenever I fell into the God is sovereign and salvation mindset, the Calvinist mindset, however many years ago it was. I can't even remember at this point, but I do remember in those times, we were still an SBC church then. And that was not a popular position in the sbc. Like, let's just say, you know, like, we were not cool kids whenever that went down. Now, since then, the SBC has drastically recolored its position on a vast majority of things, including God's sovereignty and salvation. I would say reformed Baptists make up probably 60% of the. Well, of the under 40s.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: I would say, you know, probably more than that. Probably 70% of the under 40s. So it's just. It's. It's become the new modus operandi for them. I think it's just the way things are.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: So that's probably some of the fruit of YRR then. The young, restless, reformed stuff.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: I think so. I think so. But it was not that way 10 years ago. No, we were. We were the black sheep.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's. I mean, when I was at Liberty University, Right? I was at Liberty. That's right. You went to Liberty. Becoming a Calvinist is how you rebelled.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: You started wearing all black and you talked about God's sovereignty.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: That's it. Those two things go together.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: That's right. Oh, man.
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Yeah, they. I think they're through it now. But, man, that was. That was tough for a little while. In fact, we were referred to as clavlinists.
I know. Well, this was very early.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: What does that mean?
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Well, they didn't know how to say it. Are you a klavlinist? That conversation was had in a church meeting in our early days, and I'm not kidding. Excuse me, sir, are you a clavlinist? That is a true statement. It happened, okay?
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Which you can look at me in the eye and say, no.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: That's what the response was. And so this is what we did early on. They were like, so somebody would say, are you a Calvinist? And we would say, define what you mean by that.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Very smart.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: That's the tactic.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: And they would say something about God only makes robots. And we would say, we are not that.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: We are not that.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: That is not what we are. But we, we had other things come up. What else? We were referred to for a little while as the Calvinist Cartel.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Oh, right.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: Which I, I kind of want a.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: T shirt that's kind of legit.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah, the Calvinist Cartel. Like, we're here, you know, like that. That sounds. Actually, I like that. That one could work out well. But the early days of SBC and Calvinism was rough. I think they've moved past it. That. I think they moved past that, but I don't know.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: No, I mean, I went through the same thing.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Through the same thing. Yeah. I mean, so if, if, if anybody knows and I don't. I don't think we need to go through it here. But the whole, the whole debacle with Ergon Canner at Liberty University, who is, who is like Mr. Anti Calvinism.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: And he was the president of our seminary and all that kind of stuff. So. So to be a Calvinist during those times was. Was. I actually.
I actually was. Was hired and then about a few minutes later, fired from a job at Liberty over my Calvinism.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: No. Are you serious?
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes.
I was in the grad school. I had a professor who. He's not at Liberty anymore, so I feel comfortable telling the story, but he wanted to hire me as his graduate assistant and I was gonna do work for him. And it was one of these things where, yes, there was interview process, but when a professor wants you to work for him and says, this is my guy, he's gonna work.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: It's. It's all but done.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: And so, so he told me, he's like, here are the textbooks that you're going to be teaching from. Like if I'm, if I'm out, if I'm traveling. Yeah, here's the material you're going to be using to teach. So that's like how certain this was.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: And then he said, and then they're going to do an interview, which is a formality. Right. And so we sat down and they said, went through the interview is very easy. And then they put this document in front of me and said, okay. So all you have to do is sign this and we'll be good to go. And it had, like, this statement in the middle of it on general atonement, rejecting definite atonement and Calvinism and a bunch of other things. I said, guys, I can't sign this. Right? And.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Oh, snap.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: And they were like, why? And you couldn't be a ta, right.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: If you didn't sign a statement disavowing Calvinism.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Come to find. Yeah, come to find out.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: That's crazy.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: Before Ergen Canner was the president of the seminary, all you had to sign was the bfm, the Baptist Faith and.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Message, which is the most vanilla thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Exactly right. Any Calvinist, any Christian, barely can sign the bfm.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:06] Speaker B: And so that was easy. What I didn't know was that in the meanwhile, Dr. Kanner had required anyone who worked for the seminary to sign additional paperwork on general atonement and a statement rejecting Calvinism.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Oh, wow. So that was from the president down.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Dang. And so when that. They put that in front of me, I just said, I'm sorry, I can't sign this. And so then when I got back in touch with that professor, I said, so they hired me, and then they fired me within the space of about two minutes. They said, yeah, we're done here. Oh, wait, we're not done here.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:36] Speaker B: And he said, what? Why? And I said, because I'm a Calvinist. And he said, that's insane.
And he was not a Calvinist. But he just.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: But there was. Yeah, it was done.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: He just knew it was insane. He didn't even know that was the policy.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I got invited to go teach at a Bible college two years in a row. Not a third, though.
They wanted me to go teach. I can't remember what it was, the original deal, but I was like, yeah, you know, we'll go teach. And they said, what do you want to teach? And it was one of those, like, gap program. Gap program Bible colleges where you go for a year and they take you through the whole Bible. And I was like, I don't know. You know, what do you need? And so they kind of gave me a list of books of the Bible that nobody had picked up yet. And I was like, well, I'll do Galatians.
I'll do Galatians. Let's go. And so I knew going in that they were anti Calvinist. I knew that already. So I knew I had to be careful in kind of what I said. But I could say I mean, I could just say what the Bible says and then let them sort it out from there. But the kids that I taught smelled it immediately. They were all 18 to 21 years old, roughly. You know, they were all Christian kids. They grew up in Christian families. They were doing their thing. And a couple of them, you know, I finished teaching through the first couple of chapters of Galatians. A couple of them started coming up to me and they said, hey.
It was almost like we were having a meeting in a dark alley.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: You know, like they're coming up to me and they're like, hey, are you a. Are you a Calvinist? And I remember just sitting there and I was like, first off, I'm like, is this a trap? That's my first thought.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Are you wearing a wire?
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Because I know they're not going to invite me back again to this. If I answer this a certain way. And I think I said something, I was like, well, if what you're asking me is reframe the question. Do I believe that God is sovereign over all things, the answer is yes. But by the end of it, it was almost like I was having secret meetings with about 10 or so of these kids who would just come up to me and start asking me all kinds of questions, you know, hitting me with, what about this passage? What do you think about this? Oh, you know, we're high fiving. By the end of it, they invited me to come back. The second year we did it, you know, same thing happened. I got the same kids, you know, they're coming up to me and talking through things and like it was, it was an interesting. And then year three, suddenly the invitation stopped. I was like, well, I guess somebody figured it out.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Somebody turned you in.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Well, I remembered, I remember distinctly in the second year that all of my talks were recorded.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Oh, that'll do it.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: And I don't think they were in the first.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: You have a hot mic scenario. Did you keep the mic on while you were talking to the students?
[00:22:08] Speaker A: One on one? I've got it over here. Maybe that's what happened. Maybe that's what it was in our secret meeting.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: That's right there. That's right.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. That was quite a. It was a lot of fun though, you know, but we, We've seen that controversy.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Kind of follow us.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: I have a theory about why that controversy exploded during the YRR movement.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Okay. Why?
[00:22:29] Speaker B: And I don't, I don't actually think it's a theory that would work today, because as you yourself have said, Things have changed.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: It's become a little main. Mainlining.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: But. But when it was still on the fringes, you have to remember that at that time, if you were in Southern Baptist culture, most likely you did not know anything outside of that culture.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Agreed.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: You didn't know what the PCA was.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: I have stories for you, but continue. Yes, yes.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: So I mean, it just tends to be that culture at that time anyway. I. I don't know if it still is that way.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: It was very siloed.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: It's very siloed. Very insular.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: And so. And part of that insular culture was. And I'm talking early 2000s, maybe late 90s. Early 2000s.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Part of that insular culture was everybody's liberal. Accept us. Okay.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: And generally speaking, I think they were right as, like, the conservative minority was small.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: Well, the conservative resurgent had just happened in the late 80s. Exactly. That was fresh.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: So, yes, the conservative resurgence is still fresh. So they. Because the conservative resurgence is still fresh. And let's be honest, like, the conservative resurgence is something that few denominations have ever pulled off. Like, let's. Let's give the SBC their due for sure.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Al Mohler. His due.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Way to go, Al.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: We're proud of you.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: We're proud.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: Down in records. I'm proud of you, Al. You did great stuff. Great stuff. Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: It's always good to know that he's watching.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: I went to his seminary for, like six months.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: The whole six months.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: It's Al's seminary. I don't know if you knew that.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: That's right. It's the flagship. It's the flagship.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: The. Yes, I'm sorry, I digress. I digress.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Otherwise I'm gonna. I'm gonna digress as well.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: So.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: So at that time, you have to remember. So in a sense, again, because of the conservative resurgence, understandably, Southern Baptists had bragging rights to their conservative bona fides. Their credentials were solid because they had been through war and they had made it out the other side. Right, okay.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: And all the opposition left. Right. Yeah.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: And so they're right. Their opposition had left. The conservative resurgence won the day, basically. And they were the ones constantly beating the drum of we are the biblical folks. We are the Bible people.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: And in many cases, comparatively speaking, that was true.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Along comes this group of Calvinists that says, we disagree, and number one, we can out Bible you. Right. We're going to take you to texts that. That you have skipped over.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Romans 9.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Romans 9 being a big one. Romans 8.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Right. And.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: So all the Ephesians one, these. These texts about predestination that you've kind of jumped over.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: And so we're just as conservative as you. We're just as Bible loving as you.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: But number one, we disagree and we can out Bible you. Number two, if we're right, your whole evangelistic methodology is in trouble.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Right, That's. I think you're onto something. Yeah, I think so.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Again, because of how things have changed in the sbc, and I've long been out of the sbc. I can't speak to how they are now, but when I was a student at Liberty and we were in the midst of all of this.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: That was absolutely. What was. What was happening.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: And the reason the reaction was so strong is because, like, wait a minute. No, we're the Bible people. What are you doing? And then, number two was. I mean, how dare you question our evangelistic method? Which for. For the SBC was. I mean, that was one of the most defining elements was their evangelistic methodology.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Well. And now it's so interesting how the goalposts shift. Right. So Here we are 10 years later after all that's gone down. So SBC feels comfy in its Calvinistic roots again.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Now we're just trying to get them to go back to their post mill roots, you know, like trying to push them back over there a little bit, I think just. So at the time of this recording, I think it was about a month ago that Jim Hamilton from Southern Seminary taught a class about don't be post mill, pretty much.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Oh, I think I heard about this.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: It was. It's a very interesting little. Little dust up that's happening over this.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: And it was recorded, right?
[00:26:45] Speaker A: It was recorded.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: It got put on the Internet. He named.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: He named Joe Rigney and Jared Longshore. And so Jared had a rebuttal to it. It was just very interesting that there's still.
There's still this degree of. No, no, no. We know. We're the guys, we know what we're doing. But whenever the texts come up and people start swinging one direction or another, there's a sense where they're trying to, I think, preserve themselves. Do you know what I mean?
They switch to defense rather than offense. And I don't. I just don't think that strategy works.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Yes. You and I were talking earlier about the role of autonomy in Baptist culture.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: So local church autonomy, obviously, in the. The big one. But I just thought of something. Do you think that in a culture where autonomy is prized, and again, I want to be clear, at least local church autonomy, but obviously that means to some extent it's prized in the culture. Do you think it is therefore hard to build a culture of. This is what we all agree on. This is what we're all clear on.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: Yeah, we are.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: X, not.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: When autonomy is something that you price so much, do you think that's. There's a bit of like a trouble, maybe not a contradiction, but a trouble there?
[00:27:58] Speaker A: I think that it could be. I think that the autonomy leads to larger issues, though.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: I think that.
I think from what I've seen, SBCers get in more trouble because of their hardcore line on autonomy. And I translate autonomy to radical individualism and. Or democracy. I mean, that's like, like flat earth democracy. Right. I think that's. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean when I say flat earth? I don't mean literally the earth is flat. I mean egalitarian level democracy. Okay.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: So flattening. Where God has made distinctions. We're going to flatten things.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: We're going to make this. Hey, this is totally. Whereas the Bible clearly makes. There's distinctions, there's hierarchical distinctions between leadership of a church and the church itself, between oversight for local churches. We see that from Paul and Peter all over the place. The way that they administered the local churches, the way that they kept sending letters, the way that they administrated, the way that Paul believed that he had author over the local church as an apostle. He even said things like, when you're gathered in the Lord's day and I am present in spirit, do this. You know, like there was a.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: You've done this in my presence so much more in my absence.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Like there was a hierarchical structure that's always been present that whenever you go to hyper autonomy of independent local congregations. I think it's a worldview issue now. We don't have enough time to go through all this in the podcast. I think it's connected to the hyper democratic, independent, nationalistic view of things. Interesting. Like on our federal level. Okay, so like, we think the president rules the world now, in other words. And so whenever everybody gets to vote for the president, they come out in droves and are ready to fight World War three in the United States every four years. Because we think that that's the fight that actually matters because we're radically independent, radically individualized, whereas the local elections, we don't pay that much Attention to. We don't pay attention to the representative heads. You get what I'm saying?
[00:29:59] Speaker B: What a mistake that's been.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: So I think it goes more that way. But anyway, we'll have to do a whole episode on that later on.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Sounds good to me.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd be into it. One of the things that I've noticed too with Calvinists, we talked about this a little bit earlier too though, is that goodness. Aren't they jolly people?
[00:30:17] Speaker B: They're happy people.
That was my thing. We can out Bible you and plenty of us can out happy you.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: That's right. Like that's one of the most winning, I think representations of Christians to the world is just how joyful they are.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: This was John Piper's secret, wasn't it?
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Yes. I remember the first time he said, yeah, I'm a Christian hedonist. I was like, I don't, I don't know about that. I think the only way I've heard that word is bad in a bad way. But he had something and he caught a lot of people's attention with that very early on. And I think it's something worthwhile. And that's continued to be the mantra of many folks that I've heard from who believe that God is sovereign in salvation over and over and over again. Let your witness of joy be your witness to the world. And it's an easy thing to do because for a Calvinist we can say things like, well, God is in control and we can mean it. It's not like a half hearted prayer. Well, God's in control. So I guess everything is going to suck for the next 20 years, you know, like no, God's in control. He has a good purpose and a good plan and I can trust him. Yeah. And we're headed in a direction. Right?
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Right. I mean, you're right. There is a kind of defeatism is not the word I'm looking for. But, but there is kind of a hand wringing that can happen under the banner of like God is in control.
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: And it is not good news.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: No. Yeah, absolutely not.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: It's like what we tack onto the end just of our misery. Right, Right. I am miserable. But God's in control.
Well good.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: Should you be miserable though? If he's in control, shouldn't that affect your disposition?
[00:31:52] Speaker B: It depends on what kind of God you have, doesn't it?
[00:31:54] Speaker A: It does. Right?
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah, but, but right. And for me, and I don't even, I have no thoughts prepared on this.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: But these are my favorite kind of comments.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: But even the Even the adding to the conversation, not just the terminology of joy, but the terminology of gladness for me has been, for me has been very helpful people, I think. I think. So I'm just speaking sort of experientially anecdotally here.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: I think it can be easy for us to talk about joy and still mean like a sort of taped on smile that we hold during difficult times.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Which is okay to my ears. That's different from gladness.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Which is like I'm gonna actually choose to project something.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: That's gonna fill up my house and, and fill up a room that I'm in.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Fill up the hearts of my children and my wife.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: It's not just gonna be joy.
As I grit my teeth and say, yes, I'm joyful, can't you tell?
[00:32:50] Speaker A: I do have the joy of the.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: Lord down in my heart.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: It is restored unto me. Shut up.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: No more questions.
But gladness is different. Gladness is okay. Like, I know we're afraid of this word, but now I'm not only gonna be joyful, I'm actually also gonna be happy.
And so, and so making that, making that the target you're trying to hit, making that part of your responsibility to be a bearer of gladness in your church, in your home and things like.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: That, that was definitely one of the things that was attractive to me about Calvinists before I was one.
[00:33:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: You know, I remember just like, why are these guys happy all the time? Right. What's wrong with them? Don't you know what's happening in the world around you? Don't you care about evangelism? Like, you know, like stupid questions like that. I just remember thinking, God, you're, you're a robot and you're happy about it. Like that was a strange dynamic. But I do remember that being one of the resonant features of a lot of the folks who believed in God's sovereignty and salvation. Whenever I was first just starting to put my toe in the water, these people are happy people. What's going on? What's wrong with them?
That was definitely where somebody was wrong. Some of it has to be. But I think that we're fighting to carry that on forward into our family. And I think that's also what prevents Calvinists from making the same mistake that the SBCRs have made and are still making, in my opinion, to circle back to that that we were talking about before, because if you have a general disposition of contentment and joy as you're moving forward through life, you don't feel like you have to fight on defense. No.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: That's going to give you a lot of momentum.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: On this kind of stuff, well, you're.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Able to say, hey, we're fighting forward and it's going to be okay. Up screwed up. Right. It's all right. Keep going. We'll be okay. Move forward from here, and the Lord's going to take care of us and provide for us, guys. Forward.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: Keep going.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's right. And so it's. That's. And that's, you know, practically on a pastoral level, people still need a lot of help working through that. Like, what do I. How do my sins and failures factor into this?
And I mean, it has to start with a trust in sovereignty, not an excusing of your sin. Oh, no, God did it. No, no, you did it. That's, you know, Genesis, Joseph and his brothers. Right. You meant for evil, God meant for good.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: And so you got to help people navigate that.
But ultimately, that results in a kind of quiet rest and gladness.
So that means that. I mean, that means that for me, that has meant that forgiveness is. Is even more possible. That's not. That's not a good way of putting it. But. But if God knew this was going to happen.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Say. Say, you know, you. You sinned against me. God knew what was going to happen, and he still forgave you. So how much more. How much more then is it. Is it also on me? I didn't know it was going to happen. Right, but the Lord is already. The Lord has already given you his forgiveness. How much more? So should I be giving mine?
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. All right, guys. Well, thank you all so much for joining us for our first episode of whatever this podcast is going to be called.
We still don't know yet, but you already do because you listened to it after it was published. We appreciate you all listening to Fancy Name. It's got a very fancy name. Subscribe, share with your friends, and we'll see you all next time.
